Epic Games Store for iOS in the EU

Oh when will Epic ever learn. And when will they stop passing on the cost to their consumers.

Apple abusing its market power every which way and a company like Epic puts its profits at risk to fight back against that abuse. And the first comment here is, “when will Epic ever learn.” What a bummer.

The ‘cost’ here could be more than money:

- privacy (more companies have your billing info)
- legal rights (arbitration is required, I believe ,on Epic’s new store (though Apple may be the same)),
- possible difficulties in getting refunds (like when Epic had to return some ~$500 million for kids making purchases on their parent’s credit cards https://fortune.com/2023/09/19/fortnite-ftc-settlement-refund/) compared to Apple’s *extremely, extremely* lenient no-questions-asked refund policy.

When giants fight over a piece of bread, should we be happy when we get the crumbs?

While it’s nice to imagine that there’s some big populist/socialist principle Epic et al are fighting for, let’s be clear: Epic is not doing all this for the little guy — they’re doing it for Epic’s bottom line. Something something Elon Musk.

Occam’s razor: Epic gave Alt Store money so that there’s another place to get Fortnite (and to distribute Fortnite’s internal store that goes straight to Epic).

Also, Epic plows millions into marketing Epic Store via giveaways in a decade-long attempt to get market share from Steam. Expect to see that here as well — I have over a hundred ‘free’ games from them (I’ve played one, maybe two).

That’s actually not bad for the casual gamer for sure, but like subsidized food (Uber Eats, Blue Apron), subsidized rides (Uber, Lyft), subsidized lodging (AirBnB) - the consumer is eating marketing budget — and those are not necessarily sustainable businesses once that marketing budget dries up. Also, those companies have also put some serious harm onto restaurants, public transit/taxi, and the housing market. I say eat up folks, but careful what you lose along the way.

The rich love externalizing the actual costs of their market share-capturing antics. It’s the ‘long tail’ that everyone talks about.

Oh, and of course other ‘costs’ off the top of my head
- Added complexity — both for end user and also those who support those end users. (Which version of that app? Delta, right? you got from the Apple app store or is it the one from Alt Store? Does that one have Apple’s family sharing or not? How do you get a refund — not sure and not sure how to find out)
- Risk - gambling, crypto apps, media piracy (if you’re an IP holder)
- FUD - fear uncertainty doubt — especially for developers

But those costs are external to Epic’s bottom line — it’s a net win for Epic.

It’s part of Apple’s bottom line (since non-nerds mostly care about the user experience and any frustration tends to ultimately end up at Apple’s feet) so a net loss for Apple, even if Apple gets its CTF money.

> privacy (more companies have your billing info)

It should be my choice. But if you’re afraid to purchase anything from anyone except the almighty Apple you’re free to stay App Store only.

> - Risk - gambling, crypto apps, media piracy (if you’re an IP holder)

The App Store already allows scam apps in the store.

> It’s part of Apple’s bottom line (since non-nerds mostly care about the user experience and any frustration tends to ultimately end up at Apple’s feet)

You can’t be serious. Apple prohibiting streaming apps from telling users how to sign up, forcing them to figure it out themselves is a great user experience. It ain’t about user experience. Apple’s policy is the way it is on this only for the money and you’re naive if you believe anything else.

@ Objc4Life “It ain’t about user experience. Apple’s policy is the way it is on this only for the money and you’re naive if you believe anything else.”

I think that’s an exaggeration / silly simplification. Isn’t part of why we use Apple junk because the user experience is better than elsewhere? I mean, that’s why I do.

I hope Apple doesn't pay you for this, Someone else, because if they do, you need to come up with better arguments.

I think he's payed by EPIC.

Haha, you guys aren’t being paid by Epic?

While I appreciate some healthy cynicism Someone else, it borders on unbelievable seeing you say:

> While it’s nice to imagine that there’s some big populist/socialist principle Epic et al are fighting for, let’s be clear: Epic is not doing all this for the little guy — they’re doing it for Epic’s bottom line.

AND

> @ Objc4Life “It ain’t about user experience. Apple’s policy is the way it is on this only for the money and you’re naive if you believe anything else.” I think that’s an exaggeration / silly simplification.

You’re telling us Epic is a greedy mega corporation doing this only for its bottom line, but Apple is strangling developers and gleefully figuring out ways to sidestep the EU’s clear requests solely out of its compassion for the user experience?

It’s just mindbending to see you so confidently claim Epic only cares about money and then a message later call someone silly for stating the obvious fact that Apple only does as well. It’s not silly at all, that’s exactly how Apple operates and the only reason they’re dragging this out. And they’ve done it before (https://doctorow.medium.com/the-antitrust-case-against-apple-ba69b401ecbe)

> But the threat of Apple turning on its customers isn’t limited to China. While the company has been unwilling to spy on its users on behalf of the US government, it’s proven more than willing to compromise its worldwide users’ privacy to pad its own profits. Remember when Apple let its users opt out of Facebook surveillance with one click? At the very same time, Apple was spinning up its own commercial surveillance program, spying on Ios customers, gathering the very same data as Facebook, and for the very same purpose: to target ads. When it came to its own surveillance, Apple completely ignored its customers’ explicit refusal to consent to spying, spied on them anyway, and lied about it.

Apple does things solely based on what will make them the most money and no other factors, including concern for their customers. It’s incredibly naive to suggest Epic games does this and apple does not.

@ Dichotomy, read what I wrote more closely. I didn’t say Epic does it ONLY to make money. Maybe it’s 99% for making money, and 1% principle. :)

Meanwhile, other folks here are saying Apple is doing their annoying nasties for “ It ain't about user experience. Apple's policy is the way it is on this only for the money and you're naive if you believe anything else.” I think most would agree that Apple does a pretty good job with user experience in general and the App Store actually is revolutionarily smooth and easy to use.

In fact, you’re doing it above “Apple does things solely based on what will make them the most money and no other factors, including concern for their customers.”

Now, is that a provable fact? Let’s test that absolute. Can you think of ANYTHING that Apple does that could make them more money than they do now? If you can (and I can think of plenty), then your statement is wrong.

That’s what I’m pointing out.

Absolutes are silly - and while even I might exaggerate sometimes, I think I’m pretty clear that life isn’t black and white, unlike some others.

(Really, Occam’s razor and plenty of other analysis by other folks say Epic is really about gaining direct access, especially on the game consoles… they want growth, and something close to regulatory capture is the easiest way to do it. Business rule is to make everyone else a commodity. To Epic, the consoles and platforms are commodity - Epic’s game engine is the cross-platform superset (and it really is), so they’re being logical in a business way… but they’re using the guise of the little guy or freedom to sell it. Billionaires are not like you and me, and their interests are not the same as ours

Apple certainly cares about money, and it makes a ton of it. Frankly, so much it doesn’t know what to do with it (Apple car) but I mean what I say, Apple is and is going to be blamed for things it’s not doing. In this case, shit flows uphill. )

And while I like Cory, he’s leaving out some important things like Apple’s advertising uses a different model from everyone else’s - one that claims (and supposedly does a good job of) protecting privacy (basically, on-device selection of ads, delayed and intermingled click through reporting, etc). This is similar to how they collect data on maps and it’s harder and cost more get the same results as say Google. Why? Privacy is a brand value.. Those examples are far less privacy invasive than most everyone else, and far less profitable. He surely knows this, but he’s Cory :) and he has fewer shades of grey than exist in reality.

Also, I just disproved your claim. :)

All I’m saying is being a bit more measured in our criticism would do a lot of good for everyone. Otherwise it comes off as just factually-incorrect griping. Nuance matters. I appreciated your reply BTW.

@Someone else

I think even though our end conclusion may differ a bit we're essentially arguing the same thing, which is to apply our criticisms evenly, so I'm happy to end on that note :)

On another note, I have appreciated your discussion and though I don't always agree with you, I definitely don't think you're a bot and I get a chuckle out of the "paid shill" comments (much love Kristoffer/Plume). @Michael, answer honestly--would you secretly be flattered if Apple/Epic believed your blog had such reach they were hiring people to shill in this humble comment section? :)

@Someone else I think you misread Apple’s advertising disclosure. It’s not that they select ads purely on-device but that they also use on-device information, such as which other apps are installed (which is not available to third-party ad systems). They also share info with a third-party data broker. It’s definitionally “not tracking” because Apple says it doesn’t count as tracking if you own the store. I wrote more about this here.

> @ Objc4Life “It ain’t about user experience. Apple’s policy is the way it is on this only for the money and you’re naive if you believe anything else.”

> I think that’s an exaggeration / silly simplification. Isn’t part of why we use Apple junk because the user experience is better than elsewhere? I mean, that’s why I do.

I did say Apple's policy "on this" issue is clearly *NOT* about user experience and is 100% about money. This really isn't debatable. However, Apple is a large company and I'm sure lots of the people at Apple care about UX (although UX on Apple platforms has been declining in recent years IMO...but that's another discussion).

It is my understanding that installing third party App Stores in the EU is a multi-step process and contains scare sheets based on what's being reported here. So this isn't about user experience....

When Apple implements policies like *You are not allowed to tell customers how to sign up for your service* unless you pay us 30% that clearly is a money grab and has nothing to do with UX. Sure, download a nonfunctioning app and don't tell people how to use it. Intentionally make installing third party stores in the EU difficult. How can these things possibly be about user experience?

I'm also not buying the "security and privacy" BS. I went to the grocery store and paid with my credit card yesterday. Yes I directly paid a company other than Apple and my world did not dramatically come to an end! The sun still rises!
Sure, believe Apple when they use the security and privacy argument...but go along now and visit any website in Safari and you can give your credit card out to whoever you want and everything is still somehow okay. The sky is not falling.

> I hope Apple doesn't pay you for this, Someone else, because if they do, you need to come up with better arguments.

I feel like I'm talking to a chatbot. A human couldn't possibly come up with such absurd arguments.

@Dichotomoy Haha. I got a chuckle when I wrote something at the beginning of this saga and Tim Epic followed me on Twitter, and a while later I wrote something that was less favorable to Epic and he unfollowed me.

@Michael Tsai, Yeah, I know Apple tracks internally for ads. I do think that they have a lot to lose (as in class action lawsuit for false advertising) if they’re saying one thing about privacy and doing the opposite, so until I know what that comscore stuff is, I’m withholding judgement but I do think they try way harder than others.

Also, generally, I find ‘personalized ads’ are creepy and distracting to me but it’s a quantum level worse when it’s across unrelated platforms/services… like a sweater or couch following you around to different sites or different apps.

I personally don’t think it’s a super bad thing to track people internally (seeing what apps you have to recommend more apps) but I totally understand how that might upset others like Doctrow. For them (and me), there’s a ‘disable personalization’ button (actually, Doctrow is probably rolling some weird Linux smartphone that uses shortwave instead of cell towers so this wouldn’t be an issue for him)

For Apple News, I turn it off in the Apple settings (I forget where) — so I get ads in Apple News for AARP and shoes and lots of filler ads that fill the space no one wants to buy. Personalized ads are distracting because they’re interesting — that’s the opposite of what I want. Fortunately Apple is big enough / makes enough money elsewhere to not care about making less than maximum money from targeted ads… unlike say Google.

@ObjC4Life, I disagree — while I do absolutely think that Apple is trying to make money, the UX really is better if you get a subscription via the App Store.

For example, just one aspect: related to the info leakage I mention above, compartmentalizing billing info into Apple is a better user experience than giving it to multiple streaming services — especially in the USA where some subscriptions can be really hard to get out of (though not saying streaming services do this, but cable and phone companies absolutely do. Ahem, Adobe’s cancellation fee.). While it’s not perfect, Apple’s subscription management is centralized and easy to cancel, so great for consumers for convenience, but absolutely yes, costs someone — the streaming companies or Patreon — more to do.

So whether or not you agree with that or not, I think you’ll agree that having a big fat ‘subscribe’ IAP button in Netflix or Spotify or whatever would absolutely get pressed by people. (Perhaps even with pricing comparisons available! (of course a much lower percentage) because some people really want that type of subscription control.)

It’s a nice UX! Like really nice! Amazon’s ‘one-click’ patent was a big deal back then for good reason, and that’s why Apple licensed it.

(side note: I’ve done some research… caveat that it was 10 years ago… and a shockingly high percent of younger people (think 30s) didn’t carry cash — why? Convenience! (and other reasons like budgeting, tracking spending)… they are unaware that the retailer pays that 35 cent + 3% fee and that that fee raises prices for everyone, including cash buyers. (Buy a $1 candy? Corner store gets like 60 cents after fees…. surprise! Higher percentage than Apple for small purchases… and how many $1 apps are on the store. (Pay your mom and pop places in cash, plz))

They will also buy at the convenience store even though prices are higher than at Walmart. Why? It’s in the name: convenience.

Oh, and also privacy issues? Like you, people don’t even think about that. Hell, I try not to think about it.

Re: privacy and tracking — we’re all boiled frogs here in the USA. Don’t even realize how boiled we are. But it’s nice to limit that leakage when we can — that’s a hidden but important UX thing.

So anyway, just two examples among many more of why UX is better with IAP. Netflix et al just don’t want to pay 15% finder fee for the first year + 15% in perpetuity. They’d rather skip IAP and pay 0%. No, actually, they’d rather pay 0% and have IAP.. Why? Better UX.

Something to note: I don’t think Apple’s App Store has a ‘most favored nation’ clause in its app store / licensing rules… unlike Amazon, or the original Apple iBooks store, or Steam (occasionally, supposedly).

That type of rule would be a real pincher for sure, and though maybe not illegal, puts the real squeeze on the seller — That’s neither here nor there but notable in its absence.

I recently noticed this with Patreon — that creators could pass on Apple’s fee to IAP buyers, and keep lower prices on the Patreon website.

I think we’ll find out how many people hit that IAP button pretty soon (if Patreon discloses that to creators) and what the ‘marginal value/utility’ (if I’m using it correctly) of that convenience is worth.

@Someone else The billing info isn’t really centralized, because once they add support for IAP, the subscriptions bought in the Patreon app will be managed using the Apple interface, which doesn’t show the subscriptions bought from the Web site. This is going to confuse a lot of people—not good UX. And it’s worse for privacy because now Apple knows which creators you support, whereas before it was just you and Patreon.

so... nobody's gonna mention that, despite the narrative is on Epic's video, the installation method is in fact both straightforward and reasonable?

Epic is pretends that "go to website, click button, go to System Preferences, return to browser and click accept" is akin to some advanced hacking routine. that's an insult to the average person's intelligence.

@Joe Doesn’t seem very smooth to me. Needing to bounce around between different apps will lose a lot of people compared with if iOS just asked the user. I also don’t like how they have the scare screen about giving access to your data (which App Store apps would as well) and imply that you won’t be able to get refunds.

@Michael Tsai — the obvious solution everyone is dancing around is: Apple should sherlock Patreon

@Someone else
This is performance art right? Force Patreon to make worse changes for everyone then destroy the company anyway? Like, this is a thought exercise for you? Which is fine, just want to be clear.

@Someone else: I mostly want Apple to stop being greedy penny pinchers who seem to believe they are God's gift to the world and they deserve every penny they can squeeze or strong arm out of people.

I've been an Apple user for a long time and vastly prefer their hardware and mostly their software, but shenanigans like this make me seriously consider switching to Android and Windows/Linux in the future.

Is Apple's IAP a better experience than providing every company with my credit card details? Yes. Does this mean that Apple deserves 30% off the top of every transaction? Absolutely not. Even ignoring the fact that many of these businesses/developers don't have 30% to give, regardless of how hard Apple squeezes.