{"id":29841,"date":"2020-08-21T16:55:41","date_gmt":"2020-08-21T20:55:41","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/mjtsai.com\/blog\/?p=29841"},"modified":"2021-06-18T07:11:38","modified_gmt":"2021-06-18T11:11:38","slug":"apple-files-response-to-epic","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/mjtsai.com\/blog\/2020\/08\/21\/apple-files-response-to-epic\/","title":{"rendered":"Apple Files Response to Epic"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.axios.com\/apple-likens-fortnite-creator-to-a-shoplifter-in-court-filing-59352ab0-5cbf-49b9-bc1b-38d03758ab2c.html\">Ina Fried<\/a>:<\/p>\n<blockquote cite=\"https:\/\/www.axios.com\/apple-likens-fortnite-creator-to-a-shoplifter-in-court-filing-59352ab0-5cbf-49b9-bc1b-38d03758ab2c.html\"><p>&ldquo;If developers can avoid the digital checkout, it is the same as if a customer leaves an Apple retail store without paying for shoplifted product: Apple does not get paid,&rdquo; Apple said in the filing.<\/p><p>[&#8230;]<\/p><p>Apple says Epic has no antitrust case against it because it can&rsquo;t possibly monopolize the mobile app market, given competition from Google. (Epic maintains that Apple&rsquo;s App Store and Google&rsquo;s Play Store are in fact discrete markets, each a monopoly in its own right.)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/backlon\/status\/1296888180520579078\">Dieter Bohn<\/a>:<\/p>\n<blockquote cite=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/backlon\/status\/1296888180520579078\">\n<p>It might be a strong argument! I&rsquo;d have more sympathy for it if developers had the choice of any other way to distribute software on iOS.<\/p>\n<p>[&#8230;]<\/p>\n<p>Apple is making the argument that the App Store is more than a marketplace, that it&rsquo;s inseparable with offering SDKs and developer tools like TestFlight, ARKit, and even stickers.<\/p>\n<p>I don&rsquo;t know that those things need be bundled. They&rsquo;re not on the Mac.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/sachasayan\/status\/1296891122443333633\">Sacha Sayan<\/a>:<\/p>\n<blockquote cite=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/sachasayan\/status\/1296891122443333633\">\n<p>A better analogy is if the customer goes to the farmer&rsquo;s market, and the grocery store gets angry because they&rsquo;re not getting a cut.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/stroughtonsmith\/status\/1296895112048500737\">Steve Troughton-Smith<\/a>:<\/p>\n<blockquote cite=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/stroughtonsmith\/status\/1296895112048500737\">\n<p>I&rsquo;m not on team Epic, and I&rsquo;m definitely not on team Apple. The way Apple thinks about the developers that bring life to its platforms is disgusting<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n<p>I don&rsquo;t know whether there was an internal change in the last 18 months or if the mask has simply slipped, but Apple has made a lot of official statements lately that are really tone-deaf from the perspective of a developer. It doesn&rsquo;t seem to understand or value our contributions or remember that apps existed before the App Store.<\/p>\n\n<p>Previously:<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/mjtsai.com\/blog\/2020\/08\/21\/seeking-special-app-store-deals\/\">Seeking Special App Store Deals<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/mjtsai.com\/blog\/2020\/08\/17\/apple-to-cut-epic-off-from-ios-and-mac-developer-tools\/\">Apple to Cut Epic Off From iOS and Mac Developer Tools<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/mjtsai.com\/blog\/2020\/07\/29\/tim-cooks-app-store-testimony\/\">Tim Cook&rsquo;s App Store Testimony<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/mjtsai.com\/blog\/2020\/06\/25\/the-talk-show-remote-from-wwdc-2020\/\">The Talk Show Remote From WWDC 2020<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/mjtsai.com\/blog\/2020\/06\/19\/have-you-contributed-any-revenue\/\">Have You Contributed Any Revenue?<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/mjtsai.com\/blog\/2020\/06\/16\/european-app-store-antitrust-investigation\/\">European App Store Antitrust Investigation<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/mjtsai.com\/blog\/2019\/03\/29\/software-before-the-app-store\/\">Software Before the App Store<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n<p id=\"apple-files-response-to-epic-update-2020-08-25\">Update (2020-08-25): <a href=\"http:\/\/scripting.com\/2020\/08\/22\/133242.html?title=appleHatesDevsAlwaysHas\">Dave Winer<\/a>:<\/p>\n<blockquote cite=\"http:\/\/scripting.com\/2020\/08\/22\/133242.html?title=appleHatesDevsAlwaysHas\">\n<p>In 1980-something I was invited to give a talk at Apple along with a reporter from the NYT. The idea was that we would give feedback to Apple people to help them work better with developers and the press. I took the assignment seriously. I showed up with a list of requests, things Apple could do to give their platform an advantage over the IBM PC, their chief competitor at the time. #\nWhen I finished, Apple people lined up to give me feedback on how ungrateful I am. They do all the work and I make all the money and get all the glory. Funny thing, because I viewed it exactly the other way around. They had real salaries and benefits. I was always skating on thin ice.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/tapbot_paul\/status\/1296897841709953025\">Paul Haddad<\/a>:<\/p>\n<blockquote cite=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/tapbot_paul\/status\/1296897841709953025\">\n<p>Apple keeps acting like it only creates development tools &amp; technologies as a favor for developers. BS they do it because without outside developers no one would use their hardware. The relationship is and should be symbiotic.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n<p>Apple&rsquo;s filing is <a href=\"https:\/\/www.courtlistener.com\/recap\/gov.uscourts.cand.364265\/gov.uscourts.cand.364265.37.0_1.pdf\">here<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/nickheer\/status\/1296909724684701696\">Nick Heer<\/a>:<\/p>\n<blockquote cite=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/nickheer\/status\/1296909724684701696\">\n<p>In the category of &ldquo;arson, murder, and jaywalking&rdquo;, Apple cited an insufficient changelog as one justification for pulling Fortnite from the App Store.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/lapcatsoftware\/status\/1296984064537382914\">Jeff Johnson<\/a>:<\/p>\n<blockquote cite=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/lapcatsoftware\/status\/1296984064537382914\"><p>&ldquo;Epic wants access to all of the Apple-provided tools like Metal, ARKit and other technologies and features. But you don&rsquo;t want to pay.&rdquo;<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/twolivesleft\/status\/1297122247874711553\">Simeon<\/a>:<\/p>\n<blockquote cite=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/twolivesleft\/status\/1297122247874711553\">\n<p>Apple deprecated OpenGL and is suggesting Epic should be grateful at not being charged extra for using Metal, the only non-deprecated alternative?<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/rustyshelf\/status\/1297047780108587008\">Russell Ivanovic<\/a>:<\/p>\n<blockquote cite=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/rustyshelf\/status\/1297047780108587008\">\n<p>Slightly odd considering the open alternative Vulkan is unsupported by Apple. &ldquo;Epic used the only graphics API we would let them use&rdquo;. Yeah&#8230;of course&#8230;what was their alternative exactly?<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/stroughtonsmith\/status\/1297023763536646147\">Steve Troughton-Smith<\/a>:<\/p>\n<blockquote cite=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/stroughtonsmith\/status\/1297023763536646147\">\n<p>Apple&rsquo;s APIs are not just APIs, they&rsquo;re Apple IP we developers all leech off of. This kind of thinking should have died with Steve, and is why Apple&rsquo;s old guard needs to go<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/stroughtonsmith\/status\/1297027872549474306\">Steve Troughton-Smith<\/a>:<\/p>\n<blockquote cite=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/stroughtonsmith\/status\/1297027872549474306\">\n<p>Genuine question: what does a statement like this by \n@pschiller\n make you feel as a developer on Apple&rsquo;s platforms?<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/markonen\/status\/1297051942967967744\">Marko Karppinen<\/a>:<\/p>\n<blockquote cite=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/markonen\/status\/1297051942967967744\">\n<p>I didn&rsquo;t realize that &ldquo;iCloud document storage&rdquo; was something Apple provided developers in exchange for the 30% IAP cut. I&rsquo;ve been paying $9.99\/month for it like an idiot<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/tolmasky\/status\/1297030809413541888\">Francisco Tolmasky<\/a>:<\/p>\n<blockquote cite=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/tolmasky\/status\/1297030809413541888\">\n<p>It honestly feels like the warranty has expired on Apple&rsquo;s values and they&rsquo;ve just decided to go full mustache-twirling villain in the last month. The company has been unrecognizable from a product perspective for a while, but now they&rsquo;re just doing 90&rsquo;s era Microsoft cosplay.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/elkmovie\/status\/1297225416004993026\">Michael Love<\/a>:<\/p>\n<blockquote cite=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/elkmovie\/status\/1297225416004993026\"><p>Along with all of the other offensive stuff about this: WE HELPED THEM BUILD IT. Not only by giving people a reason to buy iPhones, but we&rsquo;ve shaped the way iOS has developed; most of Apple&rsquo;s decisions about where to take iOS come from studying and\/or ripping off our apps.<\/p><p>The Metal API which Apple insists is so innovative was most likely developed with a great deal of input \/ feedback \/ bug reporting from Epic, not to mention that Epic helped Apple evangelize it to other developers; did Epic get paid for any of that?<\/p><p>Platforms are collaborative efforts; that&rsquo;s literally what makes them platforms. If Apple now views iOS not as something that they work with developers to deliver amazing experiences on but rather as a product they sell to us for money then they&rsquo;ve completely lost the plot.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/cjwl\/status\/1297620870547091457\">Christopher Lloyd<\/a>:<\/p>\n<blockquote cite=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/cjwl\/status\/1297620870547091457\">\n<p>The iOS origin story is rooted in a GPL violation, NeXT distributed modified gcc binaries for Objective-C and did not release source. Relenting in later releases and reworking of the changes after much FSF patience.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/news.ycombinator.com\/item?id=24225277\">saurik<\/a>:<\/p>\n<blockquote cite=\"https:\/\/news.ycombinator.com\/item?id=24225277\"><p>[When] the iPhone first came out, jailbreaks were plentiful and powerful&#8230; the iPhone tried to be a closed and locked down platform, <em>but failed<\/em> due to the almost continual existence of serious security flaws that allowed for 0-day drops of exploits with almost every new device release (which coincided with every new major iOS release).<\/p><p>This means that we can actually look back at the history of the iPhone and answer the question &ldquo;could the iPhone have been as successful as it was if there had been a switch that allowed users to opt out of Apple&rsquo;s complete control of not only whose apps could be installed, but further what <em>kind<\/em> of software could be installed (to let you install things like daemons or extensions to existing apps)&rdquo; and the answer is &ldquo;apparently, it could, because it did&rdquo;.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.imore.com\/interview-we-discuss-everything-you-need-know-about-epic-vs-apple-florian-mueller\">Stephen Warwick<\/a>:<\/p>\n<blockquote cite=\"https:\/\/www.imore.com\/interview-we-discuss-everything-you-need-know-about-epic-vs-apple-florian-mueller\"><p>We sat down (virtually, of course) with Florian Mueller of FOSS Patents and analyst Neil Cybart to discuss the lawsuit, how Epic got the ball rolling, its basic demands, and of course, the comparison between the lawsuit against Google. We also chatted about the context of antitrust complaints like those of Spotify, and what it all means for everyday consumers.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n<p>See also: <a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/EskilSteenberg\/status\/1297520275790139394\">Eskil Steenberg<\/a>, <a href=\"https:\/\/news.ycombinator.com\/item?id=24238096\">Hacker<\/a> <a href=\"https:\/\/news.ycombinator.com\/item?id=24245221\">News<\/a>.<\/p>","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Ina Fried: &ldquo;If developers can avoid the digital checkout, it is the same as if a customer leaves an Apple retail store without paying for shoplifted product: Apple does not get paid,&rdquo; Apple said in the filing.[&#8230;]Apple says Epic has no antitrust case against it because it can&rsquo;t possibly monopolize the mobile app market, given [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"apple_news_api_created_at":"2020-08-21T20:55:44Z","apple_news_api_id":"2786b7d0-ef7f-41d1-970a-e7e89c801630","apple_news_api_modified_at":"2021-06-18T11:11:43Z","apple_news_api_revision":"AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAw==","apple_news_api_share_url":"https:\/\/apple.news\/AJ4a30O9_QdGXCufonIAWMA","apple_news_coverimage":0,"apple_news_coverimage_caption":"","apple_news_is_hidden":false,"apple_news_is_paid":false,"apple_news_is_preview":false,"apple_news_is_sponsored":false,"apple_news_maturity_rating":"","apple_news_metadata":"\"\"","apple_news_pullquote":"","apple_news_pullquote_position":"","apple_news_slug":"","apple_news_sections":"\"\"","apple_news_suppress_video_url":false,"apple_news_use_image_component":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[2],"tags":[2085,91,101,1969,31,1667,41,209,906,1372],"class_list":["post-29841","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-technology","tag-antitrust","tag-appstore","tag-business","tag-epic","tag-ios","tag-ios-13","tag-lawsuit","tag-legal","tag-metal","tag-phil-schiller"],"apple_news_notices":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/mjtsai.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/29841","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/mjtsai.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/mjtsai.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/mjtsai.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/mjtsai.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=29841"}],"version-history":[{"count":4,"href":"https:\/\/mjtsai.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/29841\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":29872,"href":"https:\/\/mjtsai.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/29841\/revisions\/29872"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/mjtsai.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=29841"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/mjtsai.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=29841"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/mjtsai.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=29841"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}