Comments on: Tying http://mjtsai.com/blog/2003/10/27/tying/ Thu, 04 Dec 2008 21:56:07 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: Michael http://mjtsai.com/blog/2003/10/27/tying/#comment-474 Michael Wed, 31 Dec 1969 16:00:00 +0000 /?p=702#comment-474 Followup thought: how would things be different now if Apple had continued to make OS upgrades free? If they didn't have to justify the $130 every 12-18 months, perhaps they wouldn't try to put so much stuff in the OS. And if people weren't already paying for OS upgrades, they'd be more likely to pay for stuff like iTunes a la carte. Followup thought: how would things be different now if Apple had continued to make OS upgrades free? If they didn't have to justify the $130 every 12-18 months, perhaps they wouldn't try to put so much stuff in the OS. And if people weren't already paying for OS upgrades, they'd be more likely to pay for stuff like iTunes a la carte.

]]> By: Robb Beal http://mjtsai.com/blog/2003/10/27/tying/#comment-475 Robb Beal Wed, 31 Dec 1969 16:00:00 +0000 /?p=702#comment-475 Great post! Buzz is as credible as anyone thinks he is on any given subject. I didn't find him credible in rebutting Canter. I have zero problem competing with any product that is made available separately at a price that reasonably reflects the cost of producing it. Buzz's attempt at whitewashing the tied iApps doesn't resonate with me. We have at least 10-15 years of history in personal computing that tells us that when an OS vendor ties functionality to the OS, other vendors providing that functionality go out of business (in the case of single product companies). Apple's executives aren't ignorant of that history. Michael, the destruction of large swaths of the Mac culture is a really compelling story. I hope you continue to cover it! Great post!

Buzz is as credible as anyone thinks he is on any given subject. I didn't find him credible in rebutting Canter.

I have zero problem competing with any product that is made available separately at a price that reasonably reflects the cost of producing it.

Buzz's attempt at whitewashing the tied iApps doesn't resonate with me. We have at least 10-15 years of history in personal computing that tells us that when an OS vendor ties functionality to the OS, other vendors providing that functionality go out of business (in the case of single product companies). Apple's executives aren't ignorant of that history.

Michael, the destruction of large swaths of the Mac culture is a really compelling story. I hope you continue to cover it!

]]> By: Buzz Andersen http://mjtsai.com/blog/2003/10/27/tying/#comment-476 Buzz Andersen Wed, 31 Dec 1969 16:00:00 +0000 /?p=702#comment-476 Michael, Thanks for posting that--I'm glad I'm not the only one who found last night's debate a little ridiculous. Robb, I'm really not a person who likes to be on bad terms with people. Since I have gone to Apple, though, you have consistently gone out of your way to antagonize me. Up until last night, I always made a point of not responding to the nasty little comments you leave on my weblog from time to time, but your latest attack on my "credibility" was not something I could suffer gladly. I really bear no ill will toward you or any other indie developer, and was quite happy considering you a friend. Since your narrow worldview (Apple and everything associated with it == Death Star) seems to make that impossible, however, I guess I'm going to have to reconcile myself to the fact that it's not going to happen. I hope you're happy that you finally managed to provoke a response out of me. Michael,
Thanks for posting that--I'm glad I'm not the only one who found last night's debate a little ridiculous.

Robb,
I'm really not a person who likes to be on bad terms with people. Since I have gone to Apple, though, you have consistently gone out of your way to antagonize me. Up until last night, I always made a point of not responding to the nasty little comments you leave on my weblog from time to time, but your latest attack on my "credibility" was not something I could suffer gladly.

I really bear no ill will toward you or any other indie developer, and was quite happy considering you a friend. Since your narrow worldview (Apple and everything associated with it == Death Star) seems to make that impossible, however, I guess I'm going to have to reconcile myself to the fact that it's not going to happen.

I hope you're happy that you finally managed to provoke a response out of me.

]]> By: Erik J. Barzeski http://mjtsai.com/blog/2003/10/27/tying/#comment-477 Erik J. Barzeski Wed, 31 Dec 1969 16:00:00 +0000 /?p=702#comment-477 I think some perspective is necessary. There's nothing stopping someone from trashing the entire iSuite and not using it. Yeah, some parts of the OS in the system prefs may seem a little out of place, but the OS won't "break" like MS claimed Windows would if stripped of Internet Explorer or WMP. There's a pretty big difference, there, and as Buzz pointed out, Apple certainly as heck has never put the iApps out there "to cut off their air supply" or whatnot. FWIW, the iApps do sell Macs. A lot of 'em. Oftentimes they're all that's needed. The Proteron people, well, I'm glad Michael agrees. I have trouble understanding how anyone else could see it differently. Finally, re: Sherlock - I knew someone on the team and saw a bit of it at a WWDC many whiles ago. I was not employed by Apple at the time. I think some perspective is necessary. There's nothing stopping someone from trashing the entire iSuite and not using it. Yeah, some parts of the OS in the system prefs may seem a little out of place, but the OS won't "break" like MS claimed Windows would if stripped of Internet Explorer or WMP. There's a pretty big difference, there, and as Buzz pointed out, Apple certainly as heck has never put the iApps out there "to cut off their air supply" or whatnot.

FWIW, the iApps do sell Macs. A lot of 'em. Oftentimes they're all that's needed.

The Proteron people, well, I'm glad Michael agrees. I have trouble understanding how anyone else could see it differently.

Finally, re: Sherlock - I knew someone on the team and saw a bit of it at a WWDC many whiles ago. I was not employed by Apple at the time.

]]> By: Satellio http://mjtsai.com/blog/2003/10/27/tying/#comment-478 Satellio Wed, 31 Dec 1969 16:00:00 +0000 /?p=702#comment-478 About the point raised by Erik: "I think some perspective is necessary. There's nothing stopping someone from trashing the entire iSuite and not using it. Yeah, some parts of the OS in the system prefs may seem a little out of place, but the OS won't "break" like MS claimed Windows would if stripped of Internet Explorer or WMP." While I mostly agree with the majority here - and I like iApps and Apple -, I see a (slight, for the moment) concern in the fact that in Panther you have to use Apple's Mail.app to choose what will be your primary mail application, Apple's Safari to choose what will be your primary net browser, and Apple's Image Capture to choose which application will launch when a digital photo device is connected. These options should be located in the System Preferences, not in the Preferences of Apple's own iApps. [This said, I admit I gladly use Safari, Mail.app and iPhoto ;-)] About the point raised by Erik: "I think some perspective is necessary. There's nothing stopping someone from trashing the entire iSuite and not using it. Yeah, some parts of the OS in the system prefs may seem a little out of place, but the OS won't "break" like MS claimed Windows would if stripped of Internet Explorer or WMP."

While I mostly agree with the majority here - and I like iApps and Apple -, I see a (slight, for the moment) concern in the fact that in Panther you have to use Apple's Mail.app to choose what will be your primary mail application, Apple's Safari to choose what will be your primary net browser, and Apple's Image Capture to choose which application will launch when a digital photo device is connected.
These options should be located in the System Preferences, not in the Preferences of Apple's own iApps.

[This said, I admit I gladly use Safari, Mail.app and iPhoto ;-)]

]]> By: Wub-Fur Internet Radio http://mjtsai.com/blog/2003/10/27/tying/#comment-479 Wub-Fur Internet Radio Wed, 31 Dec 1969 16:00:00 +0000 /?p=702#comment-479 Leaving aside the philosophical implications, I can give a real life practical example of why this is a bad idea. On my main Mac Safari has been completely hosed since shortly after I upgraded to 10.3 (it won't launch, all standard troubleshooting hasn't helped). Fortunately, my default web browser was set to Camino at the time (lately I tend to switch between Camino, Firebird & Safari fairly frequently), but if it had been set to Safari it would have been a pain. BTW, If you miss "Internet Config" you can still set protocol helpers (and add new protocols) with Monkey Food Software's freeware "More Internet Preferences" System Preference pane. http://www.monkeyfood.com/software/MoreInternet/ Seems to work fine under Panther. Leaving aside the philosophical implications, I can give a real life practical example of why this is a bad idea. On my main Mac Safari has been completely hosed since shortly after I upgraded to 10.3 (it won't launch, all standard troubleshooting hasn't helped). Fortunately, my default web browser was set to Camino at the time (lately I tend to switch between Camino, Firebird & Safari fairly frequently), but if it had been set to Safari it would have been a pain.

BTW, If you miss "Internet Config" you can still set protocol helpers (and add new protocols) with Monkey Food Software's freeware "More Internet Preferences" System Preference pane.

http://www.monkeyfood.com/software/MoreInternet/

Seems to work fine under Panther.

]]> By: maddox http://mjtsai.com/blog/2003/10/27/tying/#comment-480 maddox Wed, 31 Dec 1969 16:00:00 +0000 /?p=702#comment-480 What specific independent software developer did Apple put out of business with the iApps? Who was making something that could compete with iMovie? Adobe? Premier was neither deisigned nor priced with the consumer in mind. iPhoto. There was no equivalent. Apple bought out the competition to make iTunes. Audion was the casuality there, but I haven't heard Panic crying. iDVD? Don't make me laugh. How long was Apple supposed to wait for its independent developers to fill these niches, before they took it upon themselves? Sorry folks, with Microsoft looming over the scene Apple can't wait for you to fill needs that they see need to be filled. Take a lesson from the Omni Group and make do. What specific independent software developer did Apple put out of business with the iApps? Who was making something that could compete with iMovie? Adobe? Premier was neither deisigned nor priced with the consumer in mind. iPhoto. There was no equivalent. Apple bought out the competition to make iTunes. Audion was the casuality there, but I haven't heard Panic crying. iDVD? Don't make me laugh.

How long was Apple supposed to wait for its independent developers to fill these niches, before they took it upon themselves? Sorry folks, with Microsoft looming over the scene Apple can't wait for you to fill needs that they see need to be filled.

Take a lesson from the Omni Group and make do.

]]> By: Michael http://mjtsai.com/blog/2003/10/27/tying/#comment-481 Michael Wed, 31 Dec 1969 16:00:00 +0000 /?p=702#comment-481 I imagine iTunes hurt Panic, but they're too classy to whine about it. I think it's great that Apple is filling these niches, but I don't think it's good (in the long run, for the platform) to make the iApps free products, all bundled with the operating system. iMovie, iPhoto, and the others have problems and limitations, but it's unlikely that third parties will develop anything better because it's so hard to compete with free products that come pre-installed. And since Apple has eliminated possible competition, it has little incentive to improve these products, except to help sell OS upgrades. I imagine iTunes hurt Panic, but they're too classy to whine about it. I think it's great that Apple is filling these niches, but I don't think it's good (in the long run, for the platform) to make the iApps free products, all bundled with the operating system. iMovie, iPhoto, and the others have problems and limitations, but it's unlikely that third parties will develop anything better because it's so hard to compete with free products that come pre-installed. And since Apple has eliminated possible competition, it has little incentive to improve these products, except to help sell OS upgrades.

]]> By: Satellio http://mjtsai.com/blog/2003/10/27/tying/#comment-482 Satellio Wed, 31 Dec 1969 16:00:00 +0000 /?p=702#comment-482 Michael= "I imagine iTunes hurt Panic, but they're too classy to whine about it." Yes, the main difference between Panic and Proteron is class. And imagination. And respect. Plus, the Panic guys are a lot more fun. iTunes hurts Audion, indeed. It used to be my favorite "leisure app", since version 2 up to version 3… I don't use it anymore… Michael= "I imagine iTunes hurt Panic, but they're too classy to whine about it."
Yes, the main difference between Panic and Proteron is class. And imagination. And respect.
Plus, the Panic guys are a lot more fun.

iTunes hurts Audion, indeed. It used to be my favorite "leisure app", since version 2 up to version 3… I don't use it anymore…

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